00:00,001 --> 00:15,880 Welcome to the Agile Focal Point podcast. 00:15,880 --> 00:21,640 We were on a summer break and now we are back and better than ever. 00:21,640 --> 00:27,160 And to be better than ever, you need a very special guest, which we have today. 00:27,160 --> 00:31,520 And it's my pleasure to introduce to you Alice Hofmeister. 00:31,520 --> 00:32,520 Hello, Alice. 00:32,520 --> 00:33,520 Hi, Harald. 00:33,520 --> 00:40,400 It's a pleasure to be here and happy to be the first guest after the summer break. 00:40,400 --> 00:45,040 Yeah, so everything is fresh and we are in a good mood. 00:45,040 --> 00:49,000 And so maybe you would like to introduce yourself a bit. 00:49,000 --> 00:50,520 Where are you coming from? 00:50,520 --> 00:51,600 What are you doing? 00:51,600 --> 00:53,400 What is your purpose? 00:53,400 --> 00:55,200 And what is your profession? 00:55,200 --> 00:58,040 Yeah, well, of course, I will. 00:58,040 --> 01:01,520 I would like to introduce myself by my purpose. 01:01,520 --> 01:04,160 I'm Alice Hofmeister. 01:04,160 --> 01:09,080 And my purpose is spark the human expector and create spaces where everyone is able to 01:09,080 --> 01:10,440 thrive. 01:10,440 --> 01:16,440 And as a change expert and founder of Twinkster, I support organizations to become high performing 01:16,440 --> 01:22,640 in a way that all people love to work in that organization and to be part of the journey 01:22,640 --> 01:27,600 to grow towards that aspired company. 01:27,600 --> 01:34,600 And you can imagine that that sometimes is a journey and means a change or even a transformation. 01:34,600 --> 01:41,640 So via our consultancy, we help leaders, business leaders, HR to develop capabilities in the 01:41,640 --> 01:48,120 organization so that they are able to drive their own unique transformation journey. 01:48,120 --> 01:52,280 And that means human centric, purpose driven and value based. 01:52,280 --> 01:57,160 And to support them, we use our Twinkster transformation journey method, which is centered 01:57,160 --> 02:01,320 around four stages like we first start to explore. 02:01,320 --> 02:03,920 So what do we aspire? 02:03,920 --> 02:07,320 Alignment around purpose, mission, vision, values, principles. 02:07,320 --> 02:11,800 And what does that mean for our way of working and behaving? 02:11,800 --> 02:18,680 Then we help them to design the new future way of working and then empower the entire 02:18,680 --> 02:24,320 organization to build the flow and resilience in the organization to create value for customers, 02:24,320 --> 02:27,200 because that's where we are here for. 02:27,200 --> 02:35,560 And then grow, drive sustainable growth, scale the new organization into the entire organization. 02:35,560 --> 02:38,840 This approach is iterative with feedback loops. 02:38,840 --> 02:47,520 So it's not from an A to B approach, but really in iterations, learning from what we are doing, 02:47,520 --> 02:53,600 changing things, adapting and improving based every time on customers and employees needs 02:53,600 --> 02:56,800 and always keeping the big picture in mind. 02:56,800 --> 03:03,800 Well, next to our consultancy, we also started the Twinkster Academy with online clear learning. 03:03,800 --> 03:06,240 And for instance, I'm very proud about it. 03:06,240 --> 03:10,040 It's our three months 360 transformation masterclass. 03:10,040 --> 03:15,400 And it's a great opportunity for leaders and for professionals to bring in their case, 03:15,400 --> 03:20,480 learn directly in the organization, implement and network with peers. 03:20,480 --> 03:24,720 And last but not least, the community of purpose driven people. 03:24,720 --> 03:25,720 That's a lot. 03:25,720 --> 03:31,000 And if someone follows your social media channels, then everybody knows how much content you 03:31,000 --> 03:34,880 provide and how many services you provide. 03:34,880 --> 03:38,360 And there is something that I really like about your approaches. 03:38,360 --> 03:44,840 They're always humanly centered and respect people who have to go through a change process. 03:44,840 --> 03:48,080 And that is really something that I find very important. 03:48,080 --> 03:53,520 And yeah, and there is one topic we should start with, I guess, because it sums up all 03:53,520 --> 03:57,760 of those approaches a bit, which is your book you have written. 03:57,760 --> 03:59,840 And it's called Purpose Driven People. 03:59,840 --> 04:06,480 I really hold it in great regard because that is a really very interesting and very helpful 04:06,480 --> 04:07,480 book. 04:07,480 --> 04:13,480 And as we know each other for many years now, I had the honor to provide a little bit for 04:13,480 --> 04:16,480 the book and provide my own story there. 04:16,480 --> 04:18,640 And that was really great and a lot of fun. 04:18,640 --> 04:24,560 But maybe before we dive deeper into the topics, especially when it comes to how to engage 04:24,560 --> 04:31,360 people, how to keep people running the change and yeah, what inspired you to write the book? 04:31,360 --> 04:34,280 Yeah, that was quite a journey, Harald. 04:34,280 --> 04:39,480 And I still remember our conversations about the case you handed in for the book. 04:39,480 --> 04:47,520 And I'm very honored also with that because it fits really well to the topic, creating 04:47,520 --> 04:49,480 a governance of trust. 04:49,480 --> 04:52,760 But yeah, the book was not there just in one go. 04:52,760 --> 04:57,200 And in the beginning, I did not have the idea of writing a book. 04:57,200 --> 05:01,440 When I was people and transformation lead at the beginning of an agile transformation 05:01,440 --> 05:07,440 in the organization I worked back then, that was in 2015, I was part of the transformation 05:07,440 --> 05:09,000 team. 05:09,000 --> 05:17,400 And the transformation, I already led lots of change processes in organizations, also 05:17,400 --> 05:18,840 in other organizations. 05:18,840 --> 05:24,600 But from the beginning, this felt like something totally different. 05:24,600 --> 05:30,680 And all the practices, everything we learned before did not really work in the same way. 05:30,680 --> 05:32,200 So what did I do? 05:32,200 --> 05:39,520 I started to write down my experiences and not meant to write it down in a book, but 05:39,520 --> 05:44,000 really to structure my head, like journaling. 05:44,000 --> 05:46,080 That's really helpful to do so. 05:46,080 --> 05:52,160 So I did that during traveling from home to work, from work to home. 05:52,160 --> 05:56,160 And this had such an impact on what we did. 05:56,160 --> 05:58,320 So this was very helpful for me. 05:58,440 --> 06:03,200 And one of the most impressive events during this transformation was the moment that we 06:03,200 --> 06:06,400 started to develop our purpose. 06:06,400 --> 06:13,320 And first, we started to develop the purpose of the organization, which was already there 06:13,320 --> 06:18,240 in a bit, but not totally understood by everyone in the organization. 06:18,240 --> 06:23,800 So it was, we could all give our inputs to the purpose, to the values, to the principles 06:23,800 --> 06:25,520 we aspired. 06:25,520 --> 06:30,520 And based on that, we also crafted the purpose of the departments and the purpose of our 06:30,520 --> 06:32,960 teams. 06:32,960 --> 06:37,760 And also we did craft the purpose of the transformation. 06:37,760 --> 06:40,760 Why is this transformation necessary? 06:40,760 --> 06:43,320 What to work on, etc. 06:43,320 --> 06:48,560 And this helped us to give guidance on what we were aiming for, but also the realization 06:48,560 --> 06:54,600 in the organization that our transformation was not about tools or methods, like for instance, 06:54,600 --> 06:56,080 Agile, Lean and Scrum. 06:56,080 --> 06:58,160 Maybe in the beginning we thought so. 06:58,160 --> 07:04,560 And that we also implemented first the technical part of the whole transition. 07:04,560 --> 07:10,680 But that realization that it was not about the tools and the methods, but more about 07:10,680 --> 07:18,280 the value we wanted to deliver, which is related to our purpose, that changed almost everything. 07:18,280 --> 07:25,920 And then after that, and that was also a really important and impressive part for me personally, 07:25,920 --> 07:31,320 all leaders and employees got the opportunity to develop our personal purpose. 07:31,320 --> 07:38,040 To do so, that helped immensely to step out of our old way of thinking in job roles, in 07:38,040 --> 07:40,480 our silent approach. 07:40,480 --> 07:45,360 And working from purpose really helps to unleash all talents in the organization. 07:45,360 --> 07:52,520 Well, along the way, it took several years, I developed the People Journey Circle. 07:52,520 --> 07:59,440 And the People Journey Circle exists of seven elements that are key for a success in a transformation. 07:59,440 --> 08:06,280 And these elements are also part of the 360 transformation journey I mentioned before. 08:06,280 --> 08:13,680 And then, all of a sudden, some people in my environment and also in organizations said, 08:13,680 --> 08:16,680 "Is it maybe an idea to write this down?" 08:16,680 --> 08:25,360 Because a lot of organizations are struggling with where to go to, how to change our organizations, 08:25,360 --> 08:28,180 change after change after change is piling up. 08:28,180 --> 08:35,160 But how can we lead and drive these changes and these transformations? 08:35,160 --> 08:41,140 And well, as part of my purpose is also sharing information to create spaces where everyone 08:41,140 --> 08:45,920 is able to thrive, I thought, "Let's write it down." 08:45,920 --> 08:50,720 And there, my book existed and was published. 08:50,720 --> 08:52,000 Yeah, that's so great. 08:52,000 --> 08:58,240 And what I really appreciate and what I really find important is if you consult other people, 08:58,240 --> 09:04,400 then it is of great value if you have been in responsible roles in companies yourself. 09:04,400 --> 09:07,220 And that totally is true for you. 09:07,220 --> 09:14,640 You have been responsible in really big companies for change processes, for agile transformations. 09:14,640 --> 09:19,640 And that is something that really reflects in your book, that great expertise professionally, 09:19,640 --> 09:26,840 but also socially, because it really reflects that key point that it's so important to take 09:26,840 --> 09:30,820 care of people, manage the system, but take care of the people. 09:30,820 --> 09:36,080 And so that is really something that I find important and I know that you do too. 09:36,080 --> 09:37,140 Yeah, yeah. 09:37,140 --> 09:41,460 And that's also a part of your story, right? 09:41,460 --> 09:47,080 Also the story you shared in my book, but also later on when we saw each other, I know 09:47,080 --> 09:53,580 that you are also very human-centric, purpose-driven in all the approaches and all the changes 09:53,580 --> 09:54,980 you lead. 09:54,980 --> 10:02,060 And I think it's very important that you have experienced the change yourself. 10:02,060 --> 10:08,840 So yes, you can give advice to others, but if you did not experience what it is yourself, 10:08,840 --> 10:12,020 then it's also difficult to give advice. 10:12,020 --> 10:17,060 And to be honest, every transformation is different because every organization is different. 10:17,060 --> 10:23,220 So there is not one way, but the approach, which I also described, is a kind of menu 10:23,220 --> 10:29,660 to also assess where you are in the journey and what to work on. 10:29,660 --> 10:34,580 But always with people and purpose at the center, because purpose makes you unique as 10:34,580 --> 10:38,040 a person, but also as an organization. 10:38,040 --> 10:44,460 And it's so important to feel and understand the advantages for your personal self in a 10:44,460 --> 10:45,460 change. 10:45,460 --> 10:46,460 What does that mean for me? 10:46,460 --> 10:48,300 What is my advantage in the change? 10:48,300 --> 10:49,580 And not only for the company. 10:49,580 --> 10:54,820 And if you can provide this to people, then their engagement is much higher and much intrinsically 10:54,820 --> 10:55,820 motivated. 10:55,820 --> 10:57,380 Yeah, that's really great. 10:57,380 --> 11:03,740 Just one thing I wondered, after you published the book, did the conversations and the feedback 11:03,740 --> 11:08,900 around your book and the conversations you had change your own perspectives in a way? 11:08,900 --> 11:11,940 Or was it more the work you're doing or both? 11:11,940 --> 11:13,060 Well, yeah. 11:13,060 --> 11:15,460 Did it change my perspectives? 11:15,460 --> 11:19,740 I don't think that it's really changed my perspective. 11:19,740 --> 11:26,540 But only what I see is that it's becoming more and more crucial to really work from 11:26,540 --> 11:33,540 purpose and not just the slogan on the wall, but really to drive from purpose and align 11:33,540 --> 11:40,900 the people around that purpose and your mission and your vision, because the changes are even 11:40,900 --> 11:43,060 becoming more. 11:43,060 --> 11:48,900 And we have our digital transformation, we have AI, all kinds of things that are impacting 11:48,900 --> 11:54,060 our organizations with an increasing speed, more than ever. 11:54,060 --> 12:00,140 And having your purpose gives you really direction. 12:00,140 --> 12:04,340 It's what I already said on individual level, it guides you. 12:04,340 --> 12:10,260 It guides you in who you are, where you are, instead of just being a job profile or your 12:10,260 --> 12:11,460 expertise. 12:11,460 --> 12:13,860 You are far more than that. 12:13,860 --> 12:15,260 Everyone is far more than that. 12:15,260 --> 12:18,620 And what you already said, we want to change. 12:18,620 --> 12:20,060 Yes, we will. 12:20,060 --> 12:23,380 But we do not want to push into a change. 12:23,380 --> 12:30,660 And the moment that we can be part of the change and really resonate with the values 12:30,660 --> 12:36,180 and the mission and the vision of the organization, then we are also motivated and eager to be 12:36,180 --> 12:39,660 part of the journey to the future. 12:39,660 --> 12:47,460 And I think that is key in any change or transformation or where you want to go to with your organization 12:47,460 --> 12:48,740 to have that. 12:48,740 --> 12:55,060 And what I also know is that now, yes, I had the opportunity to go through a session, a 12:55,060 --> 12:59,920 program to define my purpose, but not everyone has that chance. 12:59,920 --> 13:03,540 So if you have the chance, please take it. 13:03,540 --> 13:10,260 If it's not the case, it doesn't have to be that you always have your purpose fully clear. 13:10,260 --> 13:17,900 And what you can understand, or if your organization has a purpose, so what is your feeling with 13:17,900 --> 13:19,100 that purpose? 13:19,100 --> 13:22,180 Do you resonate with that? 13:22,180 --> 13:23,680 That's already the start. 13:23,680 --> 13:28,020 And that's really helpful in everything you do. 13:28,020 --> 13:33,940 It's that global understanding of the purpose of the transition or transformation processes, 13:33,940 --> 13:40,900 but also understanding your own purpose in that context and in that system. 13:40,900 --> 13:41,900 Yeah, that's really interesting. 13:41,900 --> 13:45,500 And I do think that is really important. 13:45,500 --> 13:47,340 It's not always easy. 13:47,340 --> 13:54,260 So sometimes if the pressure is high, we need to do something to have our living, right? 13:54,260 --> 13:56,240 So it's also not the case. 13:56,240 --> 14:00,260 Sometimes I get that question from people, "Yeah, but do you then always live by your 14:00,260 --> 14:01,620 purpose?" 14:01,620 --> 14:03,760 You need, the basic needs to be good. 14:03,760 --> 14:10,200 So for instance, during COVID in one day, I lost all my projects. 14:10,200 --> 14:13,520 And then I started to apply for other jobs, et cetera. 14:13,520 --> 14:17,780 And I already started my own company. 14:17,780 --> 14:19,960 And all of a sudden that was gone. 14:19,960 --> 14:25,000 And then I had a bit of a panic reaction, like a lot of people had. 14:25,000 --> 14:30,620 And a few days later, my kids came home from school and everyone was at home and we were 14:30,620 --> 14:31,840 in lockdown. 14:31,840 --> 14:37,220 And then I walked through the dunes with my partner and he said to me, "You have a wonderful 14:37,220 --> 14:38,220 purpose. 14:38,220 --> 14:40,240 Stay true to it. 14:40,240 --> 14:45,600 And then things will come as it will go as it goes, right? 14:45,600 --> 14:47,620 But stay true to your purpose. 14:47,620 --> 14:51,200 Be here and do things that are related to that." 14:51,200 --> 14:56,200 It was also the moment that I took on the connections again in the community of Agile 14:56,200 --> 15:01,840 people, of the Business Agility Institute, because everyone had the same problem. 15:01,840 --> 15:08,140 And we went everyday life together to help each other and support each other to bring 15:08,140 --> 15:13,860 our trainings online, because we were also not used to do so, and take care of your family 15:13,860 --> 15:15,060 and kids. 15:15,060 --> 15:16,920 Stay true to your purpose. 15:16,920 --> 15:22,120 And later on, yes, the projects came back because a lot of organizations needed to go 15:22,120 --> 15:25,080 online and to work together online. 15:25,080 --> 15:31,360 So I'm very happy that someone gave me the feedback and said, "Hey, you have a purpose. 15:31,360 --> 15:32,880 Stay true to that." 15:32,880 --> 15:36,880 And that's, I think, also very important that if you have your purpose and also in your 15:36,880 --> 15:43,720 organization and as leaders, as employees, that you discuss these things with each other 15:43,720 --> 15:46,900 and that you also ask each other feedback. 15:46,900 --> 15:52,320 So if, for instance, we should work together, that I should ask you, "Hey, Harald, I know 15:52,320 --> 15:59,200 that I sometimes fall back in my behavior, fall back in other ways of working and thinking. 15:59,200 --> 16:02,680 Can you please give me feedback that moment?" 16:02,680 --> 16:03,680 That's really important. 16:03,680 --> 16:08,040 And another important topic that comes to mind is leadership, right? 16:08,040 --> 16:15,160 Especially if you want to have human-centered change and that has a really big impact into 16:15,160 --> 16:18,800 leadership or leadership has a big impact into that change. 16:18,800 --> 16:25,480 So how would you define the type of leadership needed in that agile landscape or that humanly-centered 16:25,480 --> 16:26,480 transition? 16:26,480 --> 16:28,960 Yeah, that's a good one. 16:28,960 --> 16:34,520 I would say, and the first thing that comes up in mind is people-first leadership. 16:34,520 --> 16:36,180 But what is that? 16:36,180 --> 16:42,480 So I would say we move from a more, especially when you have always worked in an hierarchical 16:42,480 --> 16:50,200 organization and maybe that still is the case, but I would say leaders are the enablers in 16:50,200 --> 16:52,000 the organization. 16:52,000 --> 16:59,600 The enablers so that people in the organization can do their work and deliver value to the 16:59,600 --> 17:03,960 customers, to stakeholders, et cetera. 17:03,960 --> 17:10,400 When I helped a pharmaceutical company in their transformation, they had a wonderful 17:10,400 --> 17:18,080 leadership program and they defined together a new leadership profile, which they call 17:18,080 --> 17:26,640 the VAAC leadership, which means visionary, architect, catalyst, and coach. 17:26,640 --> 17:39,240 And I think these four areas are key in leadership in leading high-performing teams and creating 17:39,240 --> 17:41,100 agility in the organization. 17:41,100 --> 17:47,040 Because if we start or stay controlling, then we do not empower the teams. 17:47,040 --> 17:54,080 But on the other hand, we also need to enable the people in the organization to be empowered. 17:54,080 --> 17:57,640 So what is empowerment and discuss that together. 17:57,640 --> 18:03,640 So as leaders, you really need to have those kinds of conversations. 18:03,640 --> 18:07,440 It's more empowering people than telling people what to do, right? 18:07,440 --> 18:08,440 Yeah. 18:08,440 --> 18:11,320 So developing people instead of controlling people. 18:11,320 --> 18:12,320 Absolutely. 18:12,320 --> 18:15,120 But empowering is also kind of container. 18:15,120 --> 18:16,440 So what is empower? 18:16,440 --> 18:20,000 We already talked for ages about empowerment. 18:20,000 --> 18:26,800 When I first started working, and that is a while back, we already talked about empowerment, 18:26,800 --> 18:30,380 not even knowing what agile or agility means. 18:30,380 --> 18:39,260 But it still is a word that we use, but to empower people in the organization, they also 18:39,260 --> 18:47,560 need the information and the environment and the support to be empowered, to make decisions. 18:47,560 --> 18:53,540 So it's also about delegating of leadership, delegation of decision-making. 18:53,540 --> 18:55,180 It's about trust. 18:55,180 --> 18:57,340 It's about empathy. 18:57,340 --> 19:02,940 And it's also about not wanting to be the perfect leader. 19:02,940 --> 19:10,500 So also, I still know a conversation I had with one of the leaders, and she said, "I 19:10,500 --> 19:15,380 always think that I need to know everything, but that's not the case. 19:15,380 --> 19:17,020 I do not know everything. 19:17,020 --> 19:22,580 And sometimes the people in my organization know better than I do, because they are at 19:22,580 --> 19:26,220 the front of the organization and work with customers. 19:26,220 --> 19:31,180 They see what is happening in their organizations and what they are struggling with." 19:31,180 --> 19:35,340 So I think that is also a very important shift. 19:35,340 --> 19:39,940 Yeah, and hierarchy doesn't really mean that you know everything, or just because you're 19:39,940 --> 19:44,540 higher up in the hierarchy doesn't really mean you know more about everything. 19:44,540 --> 19:51,460 And as we always try to be helpful for our listeners who are in change processes or experience 19:51,460 --> 19:58,380 things in their own work life, in your experience, when you're consulting companies, and they 19:58,380 --> 20:06,780 are more on the more hierarchical and traditional side, what is your opinion about the obstacles 20:06,780 --> 20:13,460 that those companies face when it comes to leadership and developing leadership further? 20:13,460 --> 20:18,460 And what does change resistance have to do with it in that context? 20:18,460 --> 20:23,620 What I see in organizations and also in research, because you also know the research of the 20:23,620 --> 20:32,020 Business Agility Institute and also in the research of the Agile Business Consortium, 20:32,020 --> 20:41,500 but also lately I saw some other recent researches, we see that the biggest obstacles are the 20:41,500 --> 20:46,740 change leadership skills and resistance to change in the organization. 20:46,740 --> 20:56,780 And I think these are closely related to each other, because the changes are huge. 20:56,780 --> 21:02,340 Even if you stay a bit of, you have a hierarchy, because we always have a hierarchy in the 21:02,340 --> 21:07,900 organization, one way or the other, maybe less hierarchical, but still then you can 21:07,900 --> 21:12,900 change the way you lead your teams, the people in your organization. 21:12,900 --> 21:18,860 But the thing is that if there are changes in your organization, then as a leader, you 21:18,860 --> 21:22,340 are also an employee, right? 21:22,340 --> 21:23,700 You also have that head. 21:23,700 --> 21:27,220 So the change is also new for the leader. 21:27,220 --> 21:32,340 And what I often see and hear is that leaders say, "Yeah, but the teams, the people in 21:32,340 --> 21:34,280 the teams don't want to change." 21:34,280 --> 21:39,120 And then I say, "But are they the only one who have to change?" 21:39,120 --> 21:41,240 You also have to change your approach. 21:41,240 --> 21:49,740 If you, you can tell what to do, but if you show something different, well, people are 21:49,740 --> 21:51,820 mirroring what you are doing. 21:51,820 --> 21:53,300 We are, we copy. 21:53,300 --> 21:57,420 We already do that from when we are born, right? 21:57,420 --> 22:06,440 So they have to set the example and also learn and take the time to learn and especially 22:06,440 --> 22:10,020 to understand what it means to lead change. 22:10,020 --> 22:12,640 So what is change management? 22:12,640 --> 22:17,040 What are people going through in change? 22:17,040 --> 22:25,440 Change resistance is maybe not really resistance, but it's a different opinion. 22:25,440 --> 22:34,040 Listen to that because maybe it's an opportunity to change your organization in the right way. 22:34,040 --> 22:41,280 And I think that's the biggest obstacle that taking the time to sit down with the people 22:41,280 --> 22:51,440 in your organization, to listen what is on their mind, because, and maybe that's too 22:51,440 --> 23:00,520 deep for now, but change resistance, sometimes people respond in a way because of past experiences, 23:00,520 --> 23:06,760 experiences in the past related to change in the organization, but can also be experiences 23:06,760 --> 23:11,320 at home or in the social environment. 23:11,320 --> 23:15,880 And then if you announce a kind of change, then it can be an explosion. 23:15,880 --> 23:23,860 So you need to be very careful about that and understand how that change curve works. 23:23,860 --> 23:29,520 Maybe you know the change curve, but it's related to the Koeppler-Ross change curve. 23:29,520 --> 23:37,040 And she created that when people are mourning, when they lose someone in the environment. 23:37,040 --> 23:42,200 And we see the same stages also when people go through change. 23:42,200 --> 23:45,760 And it's also something that is not just one way. 23:45,760 --> 23:52,400 So sometimes you think as an employee or a leader, oh yeah, maybe this is a good, this 23:52,400 --> 23:53,880 is maybe a good change. 23:53,880 --> 23:57,560 So I want to be part of that. 23:57,560 --> 24:03,120 But then if you start in a new organization, it can also sometimes be disappointing and 24:03,120 --> 24:07,000 not being what you expected it to be. 24:07,000 --> 24:08,660 And then people can fall back. 24:08,660 --> 24:15,120 So it's really crucial for leaders to understand that and take the time to listen to people, 24:15,120 --> 24:16,120 to have the conversation. 24:16,120 --> 24:18,040 There's not a one way. 24:18,040 --> 24:21,280 It's really listening and being empathetic. 24:21,280 --> 24:27,440 And we always say that's a soft skill, but I would say it's a hard skill, a crucial skill. 24:27,440 --> 24:31,960 I guess one important thing is systems thinking, right? 24:31,960 --> 24:38,360 To understand the company as a system that you have created as a leader. 24:38,360 --> 24:42,880 And that helped me a lot in my leadership because it totally changes your perspective. 24:42,880 --> 24:48,360 It switches to yourself and what I have done to create that system where people have to 24:48,360 --> 24:53,840 cope with and where people have to live in, so to say, and the processes and guidelines 24:53,840 --> 24:57,560 and borders and silos you have created there. 24:57,560 --> 25:03,120 And the other perspective is that those people don't perform in the company, but it's the 25:03,120 --> 25:04,120 other way around. 25:04,120 --> 25:08,340 It's the system you have created that makes people not perform in the company. 25:08,340 --> 25:12,720 And so that is a point that helped me in my own leadership and to develop the leadership 25:12,720 --> 25:18,960 that I have to change the system people have to work in, that they are able to do the work 25:18,960 --> 25:25,280 on their own, to decide on their own and to widen that field and to allow people to develop 25:25,280 --> 25:26,280 further. 25:26,280 --> 25:32,000 And that is something that I have often seen, which is not really understood, which is not 25:32,000 --> 25:37,520 really understood even in the higher hierarchies where you would think that people are able 25:37,520 --> 25:41,140 to have that more strategic approach in thinking. 25:41,140 --> 25:46,760 What do you think, how important is being a corporate developer in leadership so that 25:46,760 --> 25:52,600 you know the tools of corporate development, like systems thinking or a systems approach 25:52,600 --> 25:54,320 to be a good leader? 25:54,320 --> 25:57,080 Yeah, it's essential. 25:57,080 --> 26:01,920 It's really essential to understand your entire system. 26:01,920 --> 26:09,040 So because what you already mentioned and emphasized on is the processes and the organizations, 26:09,040 --> 26:17,600 the system we created, if we don't change that and don't understand how that works, 26:17,600 --> 26:23,400 then you can ask everything, you can change behavior, you can change your way of thinking 26:23,400 --> 26:28,160 and have a growth mindset and want to try out everything. 26:28,160 --> 26:34,640 But if the system doesn't support that, then we fall back immediately. 26:34,640 --> 26:41,480 And what is also important of understanding the system is when you change something in 26:41,480 --> 26:47,400 a certain part, what is then the impact in the other parts of the organization? 26:47,400 --> 26:55,640 And often we focus, and that's also our system, if I work in HR or I work in finance or I 26:55,640 --> 27:02,680 work in marketing or I work in sales or IT, we are focused on the projects we are working 27:02,680 --> 27:05,960 on in our environment. 27:05,960 --> 27:12,000 Not always understanding, hey, but what does that mean for IT when I want to change this 27:12,000 --> 27:14,200 process? 27:14,200 --> 27:19,520 Or what does it mean for HR if I change that process? 27:19,520 --> 27:26,360 What do we then need to do from HR perspective, from training, from development, whatever, 27:26,360 --> 27:30,880 to that the people in the organization are able to use it? 27:30,880 --> 27:35,680 Because it seems so simple, but it's not simple. 27:35,680 --> 27:37,760 It has a lot of implications. 27:37,760 --> 27:45,920 And especially on a higher level, executive teams, the leadership, I think it's essential 27:45,920 --> 27:50,320 that they understand what system thinking is and that they understand their system so 27:50,320 --> 27:56,000 that they can bring that on in the rest of the organization and in the teams. 27:56,000 --> 28:00,080 I also call that, for instance, the agility paradox. 28:00,080 --> 28:07,680 If you start changing a part of your organization already to a new way of working and other 28:07,680 --> 28:13,120 parts are not working that way, then that can collapse with each other. 28:13,120 --> 28:20,240 And starting ways of working, a big bang is also not the solution, but it would be maybe 28:20,240 --> 28:24,160 a bit easier to change everything at once. 28:24,160 --> 28:28,400 But that's really a go. 28:28,400 --> 28:34,560 But you need to realize that sometimes if parts of the organizations do not work in 28:34,560 --> 28:41,120 a new way of working and have to do with more siloed way of working, different processes, 28:41,120 --> 28:48,120 performance, et cetera, that's all different in the old organization than in the new one. 28:48,120 --> 28:55,400 And you need to find a way to collaborate in that in-between space. 28:55,400 --> 28:59,960 And maybe you also do not need to work everywhere in the same way. 28:59,960 --> 29:05,280 That's also not necessary, but you need to find a way that everyone aligns to that higher 29:05,280 --> 29:14,160 purpose, to that strategy, and that you together execute to achieve your strategy. 29:14,160 --> 29:18,440 And therefore, maybe you need different toolings also. 29:18,440 --> 29:25,880 But yeah, the systems thinking is a crucial part to understand as a leader. 29:25,880 --> 29:31,680 And out of your experience, when it comes to the highest levels of leadership or hierarchy 29:31,680 --> 29:37,960 in a company, do you think that those people always understand what they broke loose when 29:37,960 --> 29:40,240 they decided to do a transformation? 29:40,240 --> 29:41,240 Do they have the tools? 29:41,240 --> 29:47,440 Do they have the knowledge to really know what the change needs, what the next steps 29:47,440 --> 29:50,800 should be, what resources have to be allocated? 29:50,800 --> 29:53,520 And how important do you think is the top management buy-in? 29:53,520 --> 30:00,880 Yeah, I would say again, crucial, and also the understanding of what it means, because 30:00,880 --> 30:07,120 also the guidance you give as a leadership team, as an executive team, as the board of 30:07,120 --> 30:14,240 directors, that needs to be aligned and credible in the organization. 30:14,240 --> 30:24,080 So also, yeah, all leaders in the organization needs to be role models of what you aspire. 30:24,080 --> 30:30,740 So it cannot be that if there is a change in the leadership profile, that that is only 30:30,740 --> 30:34,340 for other people in the organization. 30:34,340 --> 30:37,060 That cannot be the case. 30:37,060 --> 30:45,300 And what I see, and last week I was at a conference, and there we spoke also about the influence 30:45,300 --> 30:48,620 of AI and the digital transformation. 30:48,620 --> 31:01,340 And one of the leaders, a CHRO, he said, "Yeah, mostly I hear, just give me that system." 31:01,340 --> 31:03,980 And then he said, "Yeah, but I cannot just give you that system. 31:03,980 --> 31:10,500 You need to understand how it works, because if we start changing this way, then a lot 31:10,500 --> 31:14,180 changes also for you, and you need to give us guidance." 31:14,180 --> 31:21,860 So start, also trainings, start to understand, for instance, AI, what does it mean? 31:21,860 --> 31:29,380 Because a lot of people in the organization already use it, maybe private, at home, or 31:29,380 --> 31:35,500 yeah, we use all kinds of digital tool links. 31:35,500 --> 31:42,500 So that means that we are maybe already a bit used to it, that it is coming, but we 31:42,500 --> 31:45,200 also need to have a direction. 31:45,200 --> 31:51,980 How does it support our organization and how does it align with our strategy and what we 31:51,980 --> 31:52,980 are aiming for? 31:52,980 --> 32:01,540 And what is then the value we can create with those new tool links and with digitalization? 32:01,540 --> 32:07,560 What is then the value we can create for our customers and for our employees? 32:07,560 --> 32:16,620 So yes, I would say it's crucial that everyone understands what it means, also on an ethical 32:16,620 --> 32:18,700 level. 32:18,700 --> 32:24,380 So we need to have the discussions on all levels and understanding. 32:24,380 --> 32:29,700 And yet you said before that it's really important to have an eye on how people have been socialized 32:29,700 --> 32:35,260 in the company, especially if they have been there for a very long time, and then they 32:35,260 --> 32:40,580 might have experienced several change projects and initiatives. 32:40,580 --> 32:43,340 Then it's that just another change thing. 32:43,340 --> 32:49,580 And maybe that drives people into some kind of change fatigue because either it's just 32:49,580 --> 32:57,020 another change or the change takes really long and people feel the change fatigue. 32:57,020 --> 33:01,820 What is change fatigue out of your opinion for a company and how can you discover change 33:01,820 --> 33:05,260 fatigue and how can you cope with it? 33:05,260 --> 33:09,340 Yeah, I wish I would have the solution for that. 33:09,340 --> 33:12,180 Then I would be a queen. 33:12,180 --> 33:19,300 But I don't think there is one solution, but it reminds me to a conversation I had with 33:19,300 --> 33:25,580 an employee in an organization and they were not really in a huge transformation, but there 33:25,580 --> 33:28,060 were some changes in the organization. 33:28,060 --> 33:32,660 And we had a conversation and all of a sudden she became very quiet. 33:32,660 --> 33:35,860 And I said, what is, is there something going on? 33:35,860 --> 33:36,860 Can I help you? 33:36,860 --> 33:41,740 And she said, yeah, I work here already for 20 years. 33:41,740 --> 33:51,060 And I almost do not dare to say anything anymore because then I'm afraid that my manager will 33:51,060 --> 33:53,300 say, oh, here we go again. 33:53,300 --> 33:56,020 And you are always negative. 33:56,020 --> 33:57,020 And she says, yeah. 33:57,020 --> 34:04,300 And what I see is that the changes we, we want to do in our organization do not sustain. 34:04,300 --> 34:11,220 So we start with something and then something else pops up and then that gets more priority. 34:11,220 --> 34:17,020 So yes, I want to say something about it, but I'm also a bit tired to do so. 34:17,020 --> 34:22,060 And I think that's a great example of change fatigue. 34:22,060 --> 34:27,300 And that has everything to do with not being heard. 34:27,300 --> 34:30,500 And that people not listen to you. 34:30,500 --> 34:37,900 And yeah, maybe also that you are not part of creating the change together. 34:37,900 --> 34:42,540 So people it's, it's on the one hand, it's also a natural reaction. 34:42,540 --> 34:46,980 So we respond as human beings in three ways when we hear change. 34:46,980 --> 34:58,160 So we fight or we fly or we freeze and we do nothing and waiting, seeing what will happen. 34:58,160 --> 35:08,180 But the moment you are able as an organization to shift the lens from change fatigue, thinking 35:08,180 --> 35:12,800 in the way, oh, people have change fatigue or they resist change. 35:12,800 --> 35:19,200 If you don't think like that, but think of, hey, but does it make sense what they are 35:19,200 --> 35:21,840 saying? 35:21,840 --> 35:27,580 And maybe we need to collect that feedback. 35:27,580 --> 35:31,760 And maybe we need to do that in a way that everyone dares to speak up. 35:31,760 --> 35:38,360 So for instance, use methods, toolings like lateral thinking. 35:38,360 --> 35:44,760 So I often use the Bono hats so that everyone thinks with the same hat. 35:44,760 --> 35:48,720 So for instance, the black hat is always a good one to explain. 35:48,720 --> 35:55,160 That's the advocate of the devil, the challenges, it sees the risk, et cetera. 35:55,160 --> 36:00,400 So if people do not dare to speak up, when wearing the black hat and everyone in the 36:00,400 --> 36:04,120 room wears the black hat, you will. 36:04,120 --> 36:05,640 I see that happen. 36:05,640 --> 36:09,720 A lot of things change and we get so many information. 36:09,720 --> 36:15,240 And then you shift the lens from resistance to opportunities. 36:15,240 --> 36:22,520 And of course, that's a process, using all those hats, but it's really helpful. 36:22,520 --> 36:25,800 And then of course, you need to take care of that. 36:25,800 --> 36:30,980 If you have that list of information and that feedback, what are you going to do with that? 36:30,980 --> 36:33,240 And how do you bring changes? 36:33,240 --> 36:42,280 Or if you, based on the information and based on the feedback, what you are doing with it, 36:42,280 --> 36:46,840 you also need to bring that back to the people who were part of it. 36:46,840 --> 36:55,840 And then you create a movement together, back and forth and creating the changes together. 36:55,840 --> 37:03,640 And yeah, for instance, and I still find it a very great example in a transformation we 37:03,640 --> 37:06,880 did with a company. 37:06,880 --> 37:15,160 They were talking already for a couple of years about how we are working agile and we 37:15,160 --> 37:16,960 are doing this and that. 37:16,960 --> 37:22,120 And okay, we started the transformation, they wanted to continue. 37:22,120 --> 37:26,320 And then I asked them, but what does that really mean for you being agile? 37:26,320 --> 37:30,080 Did you go through the agile principles, for instance? 37:30,080 --> 37:32,800 And they said, no. 37:32,800 --> 37:40,520 I said, okay, but maybe then it's good to really go through that and not do that on 37:40,520 --> 37:44,120 your own, but do that together with the people in your organization. 37:44,120 --> 37:50,600 And there we started to organize design sessions and 80% of the people in the organization 37:50,600 --> 37:53,280 signed up to be part of that. 37:53,280 --> 38:01,040 And they defined and checked hypothesis, et cetera, on, okay, end to end working. 38:01,040 --> 38:03,880 What does that mean for us? 38:03,880 --> 38:08,560 Certain ways of behavior, mindset, but what do we really mean with that? 38:08,560 --> 38:16,480 And how does it align with already the global values and principles we have? 38:16,480 --> 38:18,960 And I think that is very powerful. 38:18,960 --> 38:25,480 And you still see in that organization that they have 100% engagement in the organization 38:25,480 --> 38:28,840 and an all time high satisfaction with customers. 38:28,840 --> 38:34,320 So yeah, it's really powerful, but it takes time. 38:34,320 --> 38:40,640 And then you switch resistance and change fatigue to opportunities to grow. 38:40,640 --> 38:43,760 And then there is a point that I always think about. 38:43,760 --> 38:49,640 I mean, if you have people in a company that sometimes feel that they suffer under the 38:49,640 --> 38:55,880 system and the processes and the leadership in the company, and then you can transform 38:55,880 --> 39:01,320 this into a movement and into change that really makes a difference. 39:01,320 --> 39:07,560 And really rarely I heard discussions about change that is irresistible, where people 39:07,560 --> 39:15,080 like really want to be part of and appreciate the change because it relieves the pain that 39:15,080 --> 39:17,760 they are feeling or think they are feeling. 39:17,760 --> 39:23,400 How often have you experienced irresistible change or how important do you think it is 39:23,400 --> 39:27,280 to try to achieve this kind of change? 39:27,280 --> 39:36,360 To sustain a change and transformation, it is necessary to have those experiences. 39:36,360 --> 39:40,400 And are all experiences irresistible? 39:40,400 --> 39:41,400 No. 39:41,400 --> 39:43,280 Is it necessary? 39:43,280 --> 39:44,600 Maybe not. 39:44,600 --> 39:48,120 Think of the way you walk through IKEA. 39:48,120 --> 39:55,800 When you collect your stuff, that's not really an irresistible experience, right? 39:55,800 --> 40:00,120 But at the end, the ice cream makes everything work. 40:00,120 --> 40:06,400 So I think that's something you need to keep in mind when you drive change and transformation. 40:06,400 --> 40:13,560 What is the journey we all go through as leaders, as employees, but also as customers, right? 40:13,560 --> 40:16,440 It's not an internal thing. 40:16,440 --> 40:24,240 And in organizations, we are already getting more used to work with customer experience. 40:24,240 --> 40:30,120 So why not work with an employee experience in your organization and during transformation? 40:30,120 --> 40:37,280 And transformation is, yeah, maybe also a bit of an ongoing journey. 40:37,280 --> 40:43,280 So what I see with some organizations who started already some years ago, five, six 40:43,280 --> 40:49,240 years ago, they now say, yeah, but it's not really a transformation anymore. 40:49,240 --> 40:51,680 We are now at the moment in time. 40:51,680 --> 40:53,720 And that's really a breakthrough, I think. 40:53,720 --> 41:03,840 We are now in a moment in time that we are moving to a continuous improvement and make 41:03,840 --> 41:12,400 improvements, small improvements, and are able to adapt to changes in a shorter time 41:12,400 --> 41:18,920 of period and still aligned to the strategy and to the purpose. 41:18,920 --> 41:28,080 So yeah, I think if you are able to create those experiences, then people are also more 41:28,080 --> 41:29,480 eager to join. 41:29,480 --> 41:37,160 You see a change in your organization, in culture, because there is more buzz in the 41:37,160 --> 41:38,400 organization. 41:38,400 --> 41:44,520 It's not, and that doesn't mean still, doesn't mean that it's always irresistible. 41:44,520 --> 41:45,520 No. 41:45,520 --> 41:52,840 We will do things that we think, okay, I really do not like it. 41:52,840 --> 41:55,520 But that's with everything you do. 41:55,520 --> 41:59,640 But you can always try to make it better and to measure that also. 41:59,640 --> 42:03,640 So like you measure the customer journey and what are the touch points? 42:03,640 --> 42:04,840 What do people like? 42:04,840 --> 42:06,360 What makes it irresistible? 42:06,360 --> 42:11,520 Because what I think is irresistible is maybe not irresistible for you. 42:11,520 --> 42:17,000 And how can we then improve it? 42:17,000 --> 42:25,040 And what I really find irresistible and an irresistible experience, but that's my thing, 42:25,040 --> 42:32,240 my example, is what we do, for instance, with the sessions with the Bono Heads using liberating 42:32,240 --> 42:43,840 structures, which really create a space for people with large groups to align and to collaborate 42:43,840 --> 42:48,480 together on those changes and in the transformation. 42:48,480 --> 42:51,320 That's really what is for me irresistible. 42:51,320 --> 42:56,000 Even though it's a group that creates that safe environment where people are more likely 42:56,000 --> 43:02,080 to want to grow and to want to have that exchange and to want to express themselves. 43:02,080 --> 43:04,640 I've noticed that too, that is really powerful. 43:04,640 --> 43:05,640 Yeah. 43:05,640 --> 43:06,960 And the connections you make. 43:06,960 --> 43:14,480 So we are so used to do a lot of things online and especially after COVID. 43:14,480 --> 43:22,320 The good thing is that we are able to connect online, but we also really need to make the 43:22,320 --> 43:26,060 in-person connections again, the social connections. 43:26,060 --> 43:38,080 That's individually the case, but also in organizations and to sit together and to understand, 43:38,080 --> 43:43,240 what do you mean if we speak about transparency and what is transparency for me, especially 43:43,240 --> 43:49,260 when you work with in an organization that is globally, because in another country, maybe 43:49,260 --> 43:51,960 it's something totally different. 43:51,960 --> 43:59,020 And what I also experience often is that if we discuss together the principles, so for 43:59,020 --> 44:03,220 instance, if you work with Agile, the Agile principles, I also work with visual management 44:03,220 --> 44:04,220 and the Obeya. 44:04,220 --> 44:07,280 There's a whole philosophy behind it. 44:07,280 --> 44:14,960 And then we work with, then I put, for instance, literally the placemats with the principles 44:14,960 --> 44:20,840 on the floor and we walk around it and we search for, hey, which principle can help 44:20,840 --> 44:26,500 me in the way of working or can help us as a team in the way of working. 44:26,500 --> 44:32,520 And then sometimes you'll hear the same explanation, what people explain for different 44:32,520 --> 44:34,920 principles. 44:34,920 --> 44:39,680 And that's very important to understand it from each other, but also there the conversations 44:39,680 --> 44:47,020 start and there you start to collaborate on, okay, and if that is so crucial for us, how 44:47,020 --> 44:53,680 can we bring that further and what does it mean for me personally in my behavior? 44:53,680 --> 44:59,240 You know, when it comes to deciding what might be right for a company or what are the influences 44:59,240 --> 45:06,460 on companies in general, you've mentioned the Business Agility Institute and yeah, especially 45:06,460 --> 45:12,120 even Leiborn, who is one of the Agile heroes worldwide, out of my opinion, at least. 45:12,120 --> 45:18,260 How do you integrate scientific surveys because the Business Agility Institute, for those 45:18,260 --> 45:22,300 who don't know the Business Agility Institute, they are like shining the scientific light 45:22,300 --> 45:28,660 on agility and have surveys and really on a scientific level, important information. 45:28,660 --> 45:35,240 Do you integrate those insights into your transformation projects or into your own maybe 45:35,240 --> 45:36,660 perspective on those? 45:36,660 --> 45:37,760 Yeah, absolutely. 45:37,760 --> 45:45,140 I'm also very curious because I think this week or next week, the latest report will 45:45,140 --> 45:49,220 be published. 45:49,220 --> 45:54,720 I would have hoped that it was already there today, but it's not because I'm very curious 45:54,720 --> 45:57,420 what their findings are. 45:57,420 --> 46:05,940 And yeah, I integrate it, of course, in my way of working also to understand what does 46:05,940 --> 46:12,420 that mean and how do we read those data because there is a lot of data. 46:12,420 --> 46:17,960 And sometimes if you read that, then you think, "Ah, that's very negative," but it doesn't 46:17,960 --> 46:25,600 have to be because I sometimes say we already see for, I think, three or four years in a 46:25,600 --> 46:32,260 row that the biggest challenges are resistance to change in the organization and the leadership 46:32,260 --> 46:34,100 change capabilities. 46:34,100 --> 46:42,580 So you can think, "Ah, that is very negative and obstacles," but on the other hand, it 46:42,580 --> 46:47,220 also means that you need to stay... 46:47,220 --> 46:54,940 How do you say that in English? 46:54,940 --> 47:02,180 That it needs to be top of mind in an organization, that you need to spend time on that and that 47:02,180 --> 47:09,980 that is something that you will face in every transformation towards creating agility. 47:09,980 --> 47:16,540 So that you maybe also feel more confident that also organizations who are already for 47:16,540 --> 47:23,360 years on their way, that that is a journey and that it takes time and that we do not 47:23,360 --> 47:34,820 only see that from our experiences, but also in researchers among a broad range of organizations 47:34,820 --> 47:35,820 and people. 47:35,820 --> 47:37,920 So I think it's very good to do. 47:37,920 --> 47:40,220 So yes, I integrate that. 47:40,220 --> 47:47,300 It's always good to have a broader perspective on topics and then scientifically controlled 47:47,300 --> 47:48,540 in some ways. 47:48,540 --> 47:53,980 Yes, that there are other companies with the same problems and that if you want to transform 47:53,980 --> 47:59,640 the whole economy into a new way of working, then because we always have these discussions, 47:59,640 --> 48:02,100 if Agile is dead or if it's still alive. 48:02,100 --> 48:06,660 But if you take the perspective of the whole economy, if you try to transform a whole economy, 48:06,660 --> 48:09,740 then if it takes 25 years, that's nothing. 48:09,740 --> 48:15,740 I mean, we are just starting when it comes to transforming the whole economy with no 48:15,740 --> 48:21,460 new ways of leadership working, because the processes that have been established have 48:21,460 --> 48:26,100 established for hundreds of years or at least centuries. 48:26,100 --> 48:31,540 And if we look into companies, how many of the processes or leadership principles have 48:31,540 --> 48:37,660 developed like in the 50s, 60s, then it's not really a big problem if it takes like 48:37,660 --> 48:46,220 20 years to try to transform that that has established there into new ways and newer 48:46,220 --> 48:47,220 processes. 48:47,220 --> 48:49,020 Would you share that opinion? 48:49,020 --> 48:50,540 Yeah, absolutely. 48:50,540 --> 48:58,700 And I think what you are saying about we created that for over 100 years, the system we have 48:58,700 --> 49:00,980 now and it works always. 49:00,980 --> 49:06,660 So but now we are feeling that things are changing faster and faster, and especially 49:06,660 --> 49:18,060 with the entire digitalization that makes that changes are impacting us with more speed. 49:18,060 --> 49:21,820 And sometimes we cannot cope. 49:21,820 --> 49:26,300 Our brains are not made that we can adapt that easily. 49:26,300 --> 49:34,380 So the digitalization and AI, what I hear, they are almost that far that it is like a 49:34,380 --> 49:40,500 human being, maybe not feeling the same emotions, but I'm not sure about that. 49:40,500 --> 49:49,060 I've seen other researches, but we as human beings want to be in control. 49:49,060 --> 49:56,060 And that's the case that we are not always in control, but we have been always in control. 49:56,060 --> 50:04,220 And so now we think, OK, but can we change that now in a bit high speed? 50:04,220 --> 50:07,420 I don't think we can in high speeds. 50:07,420 --> 50:10,060 So we need to take the time. 50:10,060 --> 50:16,040 But what we also find difficult is that we have a strategy and we can aspire something 50:16,040 --> 50:20,420 in 10 years, maybe, like you think, oh, this is the ideal situation. 50:20,420 --> 50:21,420 But we are not there. 50:21,420 --> 50:22,500 We are here. 50:22,500 --> 50:28,460 So you need to make it smaller and smaller and smaller so that it's for us in our brains 50:28,460 --> 50:36,700 adjustable and that we can start working from here and still aligning to that bigger picture. 50:36,700 --> 50:43,660 And that's, I think, also a very difficult one, because that also means that we need 50:43,660 --> 50:46,460 to say, OK, but when are we then successful? 50:46,460 --> 50:48,320 How can we measure that? 50:48,320 --> 50:52,660 Can we measure that when we are successful in 10 years? 50:52,660 --> 50:56,820 But if we make it smaller, then we can say, OK, and what does that mean in a year? 50:56,820 --> 50:58,300 And what does it mean in half a year? 50:58,300 --> 51:00,340 And what maybe in three months? 51:00,340 --> 51:06,180 If we can make it that small, then we are better able to work on the topics that really 51:06,180 --> 51:10,100 matter aligned to that strategy. 51:10,100 --> 51:22,240 And maybe we can then also change easier and adapt to the things that are necessary now. 51:22,240 --> 51:27,560 When it comes to accelerating change, I mean, it's sometimes like climate change. 51:27,560 --> 51:32,920 We have known climate change for centuries and we have known that it will come and it 51:32,920 --> 51:35,000 will accelerate. 51:35,000 --> 51:40,080 And it's the same principle with agile approaches or new ways of working and adapting to change. 51:40,080 --> 51:43,160 We try to cope with complexity. 51:43,160 --> 51:47,440 We have known this for several years, at least two decades. 51:47,440 --> 51:52,860 And now with AI and all the technology that's coming with it, change will accelerate into 51:52,860 --> 51:59,840 a way where complexity is accelerating too and will reach a point where companies really 51:59,840 --> 52:05,560 will have problems if they don't have developed methods that enable them to cope with complexity 52:05,560 --> 52:08,460 and to reduce complexity for them. 52:08,460 --> 52:15,640 Because when you look at the rate where knowledge of humanity doubles, then it was like several 52:15,640 --> 52:22,200 centuries like 200 years ago, and then it was several years like some decades ago. 52:22,200 --> 52:28,420 And now we count it in months or weeks and soon in days or hours where we have developed 52:28,420 --> 52:31,780 a speed of knowledge that is created. 52:31,780 --> 52:37,160 Even though if you don't look at the whole economy, but special parts, then there also 52:37,160 --> 52:44,920 will be change that is so fast that you really have to have processes and leadership and 52:44,920 --> 52:48,320 everything else to cope with this complexity. 52:48,320 --> 52:55,880 How do you think AI will influence agile development and agile transitions or companies that will 52:55,880 --> 52:57,240 need those processes? 52:57,240 --> 53:06,480 Yeah, I think AI can help us, whether you work in an agile way or not. 53:06,480 --> 53:16,880 Can really help us to take over the tasks that are more repetitive, can help us to create 53:16,880 --> 53:26,600 data and so on so that we as human beings can spend time on other things and have more 53:26,600 --> 53:29,800 time available also for that. 53:29,800 --> 53:36,280 Because what we also see is that we need more people in organizations or we need more hours 53:36,280 --> 53:40,160 maybe to do the work we need to do. 53:40,160 --> 53:48,960 And so yes, it can be very helpful and it will also influence the way we work. 53:48,960 --> 53:53,780 But it will not, I think it will not take over everything. 53:53,780 --> 54:02,480 So we still need to interpret what the AI delivers us. 54:02,480 --> 54:14,200 And I know that, for instance, last week I had a conversation with, it was from, yeah, 54:14,200 --> 54:16,740 at the conference, it was from L'Oreal. 54:16,740 --> 54:24,840 They presented their way of working and the implementation of AI in the organization. 54:24,840 --> 54:31,780 They are now already working with that, creating marketplaces where people can bring in their 54:31,780 --> 54:37,760 skills so that, so you can match better what the roles are in the organization, what is 54:37,760 --> 54:44,920 the kind of work there is, and is that something for you outside of what your expertise is 54:44,920 --> 54:48,080 or what your function is. 54:48,080 --> 54:52,360 But they also explained we are doing that already for four years. 54:52,360 --> 55:01,320 Still not the entire organization is really, yeah, embracing, yes, but we have not trained 55:01,320 --> 55:02,320 everything yet. 55:02,320 --> 55:04,460 So they are still working on that. 55:04,460 --> 55:07,100 And that it takes already four years. 55:07,100 --> 55:16,060 So you can imagine that also if you did not start yet, you are a bit lacking behind those 55:16,060 --> 55:19,500 kinds of organizations. 55:19,500 --> 55:24,940 And even if you did not have started the conversations yet, well, I think then you have something 55:24,940 --> 55:26,700 to do in your organization. 55:27,280 --> 55:31,440 Well, I think when it comes to processes and methods that have been developed in software 55:31,440 --> 55:35,380 development, for example, which are, I mean, in the end, everything is a requirement. 55:35,380 --> 55:40,600 If you do your job or daily business, or if you develop software based on requirements, 55:40,600 --> 55:44,400 it's always somebody having a requirement to you to do something. 55:44,400 --> 55:50,120 And so these methods work in software development and in business agility, as we all know. 55:50,120 --> 55:57,580 And so I sometimes compare that to the principles of test automization, because when you transform 55:57,580 --> 56:02,460 software development teams from traditional ways of software development into agile ways 56:02,460 --> 56:06,600 of software development, you always have to keep in mind test automization. 56:06,600 --> 56:13,380 Because when the teams really build up speed, then they will be so fast that if the software 56:13,380 --> 56:16,420 test is not as fast, that is the bottleneck. 56:16,420 --> 56:21,340 And the same goes for business agility or work that is being done. 56:21,340 --> 56:27,420 And if you have that automization support, then all of the waste that people do in a 56:27,420 --> 56:32,660 company which does not really create value, but it's just there, it has to be done. 56:32,660 --> 56:35,500 And people do it because there is no other way to do it. 56:35,500 --> 56:41,820 I think that that can support agile approaches on a business agility level, because you can 56:41,820 --> 56:47,420 reduce waste that people are doing in that current moment, because there is no tool that 56:47,420 --> 56:49,540 allows them to automate that. 56:49,540 --> 56:57,100 And if you integrate AI into that level, into a company, I guess that really can speed up 56:57,100 --> 57:02,980 your modern way of working, because people can concentrate on valuable things on a basis 57:02,980 --> 57:05,420 and on a level that has never been seen before. 57:05,420 --> 57:10,180 Because you always could automate things and integrate robots that automate some processes. 57:10,180 --> 57:17,020 But that broad level of automation and reducing waste, I guess that was not possible like 57:17,020 --> 57:18,140 some years ago. 57:18,140 --> 57:22,740 And that is really promising for driving change in a company. 57:22,740 --> 57:24,660 Yeah, absolutely. 57:24,660 --> 57:30,620 And that reminds me of a conversation I had that was also for my book. 57:30,620 --> 57:35,860 And it was with a company in the travel industry. 57:35,860 --> 57:40,700 And they were also starting with using AI. 57:40,700 --> 57:44,660 It was in that time with jet bots, etc. 57:44,660 --> 57:50,900 And within HR, the people in HR were a bit hesitant about it. 57:50,900 --> 57:53,100 And they said, yeah, can we use that? 57:53,100 --> 58:00,020 But in the end, they started to work together on, okay, what part of the process can be 58:00,020 --> 58:01,580 taken over? 58:01,580 --> 58:05,340 So what are kind of questions we often get, etc. 58:05,340 --> 58:09,340 And then they started to create a jet bot. 58:09,340 --> 58:14,340 So people in the organization, when they had a call or just started to search something 58:14,340 --> 58:20,140 on the platform, they got an answer what was automated. 58:20,140 --> 58:24,740 But in the end, the automation was so good. 58:24,740 --> 58:26,740 And they also got a name. 58:26,740 --> 58:31,540 So for instance, it's Alize who answers you, but I'm the jet bot. 58:31,540 --> 58:36,820 And people in the organization started to ask for Alize, the jet bot. 58:36,820 --> 58:45,340 And then the real people in the department said, yeah, but it's our AI jet bot. 58:45,340 --> 58:48,540 And I said, oh, really? 58:48,540 --> 58:50,180 So that's amazing. 58:50,180 --> 58:51,620 Yeah, that's really amazing. 58:51,620 --> 58:52,780 If you can achieve that. 58:52,780 --> 58:57,700 And the people also in the department who created it, they were amazed by it. 58:57,700 --> 58:59,580 And they said, wow, this is great. 58:59,580 --> 59:01,660 And it takes a lot of our time away. 59:01,660 --> 59:06,460 So we can spend that time to other things that we like better. 59:06,460 --> 59:09,440 And also what cannot be taken over. 59:09,440 --> 59:12,740 So for instance, like trainings, boot camps, etc. 59:12,740 --> 59:17,860 Working on strategy, creating new stuff, being innovative. 59:17,860 --> 59:26,580 Yeah, so I think that's a very nice example of how it can live together. 59:26,580 --> 59:29,820 I guess we are reaching the end of our podcast. 59:29,820 --> 59:35,260 And what I always do when we have discussed a lot of things, what is on your agenda? 59:35,260 --> 59:39,100 What do you focus on in the time following? 59:39,100 --> 59:42,340 And what do we hear from you in the future? 59:42,340 --> 59:52,500 Well, in the near future, because I think that change the way we change and becoming 59:52,500 --> 01:00:00,860 modern change leaders and to do the things that a robot cannot do, but what we need to 01:00:00,860 --> 01:00:04,220 be better at. 01:00:04,220 --> 01:00:06,900 That is my focus. 01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:11,060 And next month, I organize a change accelerator. 01:00:11,060 --> 01:00:17,060 It's a live session where we go through these topics and start working also on creating 01:00:17,060 --> 01:00:20,700 irresistible experiences. 01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:28,220 And I really want to focus on that also for the next year to really drive from purpose, 01:00:28,220 --> 01:00:40,220 human centric and how can we create those spaces, those safe spaces that in organizations 01:00:40,220 --> 01:00:46,700 that people really love to work there, that you stand up in the morning, also on Monday 01:00:46,700 --> 01:00:53,380 and think, hey, I'm happy to go to work. 01:00:53,380 --> 01:01:01,860 And another thing what I also, but it's a bit of in draft. 01:01:01,860 --> 01:01:08,260 I help organizations to grow to high performing, which means working also from purpose. 01:01:08,260 --> 01:01:15,940 So I'm also thinking of, OK, but we as persons also needs to develop our purpose more or 01:01:15,940 --> 01:01:18,820 it would be good to do so. 01:01:18,820 --> 01:01:26,420 And I'm thinking of also doing sessions or trainings or I'm not sure how yet, but to 01:01:26,420 --> 01:01:32,100 start helping leaders, employees to develop their purpose. 01:01:32,100 --> 01:01:33,100 Interesting. 01:01:33,100 --> 01:01:35,440 And yeah, what an inspiring conversation. 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,780 It's always a pleasure talking to you. 01:01:37,780 --> 01:01:43,380 And with your broad and deep knowledge of the topic, it's also hard to ask questions 01:01:43,380 --> 01:01:48,420 because you have always to care about that you don't dig too deep because you could and 01:01:48,420 --> 01:01:50,900 that you keep that width of a topic. 01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:55,100 And so, yeah, I was learning a lot when we talk and I really appreciate you taking the 01:01:55,100 --> 01:01:58,900 time and thank you for sharing that with us. 01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:03,340 And thank you for your knowledge and thank you what you do for the community and what 01:02:03,340 --> 01:02:08,940 you do for companies driving the change and inspiring us to do so. 01:02:08,940 --> 01:02:10,740 Yeah, you're welcome. 01:02:10,740 --> 01:02:17,660 And the pleasure is totally also mine because, yeah, I think what you say and I recognize 01:02:17,660 --> 01:02:19,900 that we can talk for hours. 01:02:19,900 --> 01:02:22,500 Yeah, but that makes it too big. 01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:24,220 I know and too detailed. 01:02:24,220 --> 01:02:29,060 So thank you for our conversation. 01:02:29,060 --> 01:02:30,060 Thank you too. 01:02:30,060 --> 01:02:33,220 Maybe that's just the need for another podcast episode at some time. 01:02:33,220 --> 01:02:34,220 So yeah, see you soon. 01:02:34,220 --> 01:02:35,220 Bye Alice. 01:02:35,220 --> 01:02:36,220 Bye bye Harald. 01:02:36,220 --> 01:02:43,220 Bye bye. 01:02:43,220 --> 01:02:44,220 Bye. 01:02:44,220 --> 01:02:44,220 Bye. 01:02:44,220 --> 01:02:49,220 Bye.